Star Talks: Episode 9 with Jim Gavigan: Star Talks is the podcast of small conversations that inspire you to do big things and on this episode Jim Gavigan, the President and Founder of Industrial Insight, Inc talks about how in just two years ago with less than $200 in his checking account has been able to build a company that teaches some of the biggest manufacturers in the world, how to get their data to tell compelling stories that impact bottom line growth.
In this episode of Star Talks, Jim Gavigan sits down with us to talk about:
- How his time as a vibrations analyst opened his eyes to the impact data can have on how preventative maintenance is performed on machines and the manufacturing floor
- What manufacturing intelligence really is and how it contributes to a digital transformation
You can also listen to the episode with Jim here:
See all Episodes here - Star Talks Podcast
Sam Smith (Episode Host): LinkedIn
Here's the episode transcript:
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
So Jim, tell us a little bit about your backstory. Where are you from? Where'd you go to school? What'd you study and what was your first role out of college?
Oh wow. Gosh, I don't even know if I can remember back that far. It's been so long. No, I'm kidding. So actually I grew up in the DC area and then moved to Memphis actually to go to college. I was actually the last graduating comments of Memphis state university now known as the university of Memphis. I studied electrical engineering, although I started out, believe it or not, as a physical education major. And after my freshman year, I started looking through the catalog and I was, I was kinda thinking to myself, phys ed is not going to be a way to make a great living. I mean, I'm sure I'll enjoy, you know, teaching and I love sports and all that.
I don't know if this is a great way to make a living. So I started thinking, all right, what am I good at? So I'm good at math. Okay, well what a mat math people do. So I started looking into engineering and literally it went like this and I looked at civil, Nope, don't want to build bridges. Mechanical. I had no mechanical aptitude, electrical. She always liked, you know, wiring stuff up and you know, I just wired the stereo in my car up. That was kinda fun. Why don't I do electrical? I'll take a couple of classes in it and see how it goes. And that's kinda how I ended up in electrical engineering. First roll out of that, there's kind of a one 81 beat of that story. So one a actually started out, this was in 93 I graduated. Not a great time as a young graduate engineer.
We had recessions going on and not a lot of people were hiring technical talent, especially fresh out of school. And so w I worked two years in a bowling center and some guys that I knew I drove bowling balls for, give me a call out of the blue one day and want me to come to work for Shelby electric downtown as a vibration analyst. They want me to go learn how to, how to do read vibration spectra on rotating equipment. They like motors and pumps and things of that nature. So I did that for about three months and this was in a bad part of town. And one day we had a flatbed truck gets stolen. Long story short, the guys got shot at Corvette that a guy was driving chase and him got run over, you know, backed over by the guy and I decided, you know, this probably isn't a long term plan for me.
And I had gotten a call back from a company I had interviewed with a year before about doing a controls engineer job. So basically going into plants and automating their manufacturing processes. And I called John and I said, Hey, are you still hiring? And he said, yeah. He said, when you want to come talk, I said, well, is today too soon? And so one thing led to another and I don't know, maybe three weeks later I was there. So I did that for my first six years. So that's really the, the first real job I had and spent time at. But the one a story's kind of fun, you know, about the, you know, getting shot at and all that kind of stuff. It wasn't me fortunately, but it was kinda crazy.
Pretty interesting how a gunshot actually propelled you. Forced your pivot.
Yeah. Yeah. It's like, well, if you're working down around people who are that desperate you know, maybe this isn't really the place for you. It's kind of my thought. So, and I knew it wasn't a long term role, but you know, it's been very interesting over the years. You know, I, I, I tell people all the time that though this whole industrial internet of things, you know, whatever you want to call it today, I think maintenance and reliability is like one of these single biggest opportunities. So understanding vibration and how that affects rotating equipment and its reliability. It's actually been really good that I have that tool in my bag. So I'm glad I did it, but I'm glad I also didn't do it long term.
Very interesting. So tell us a little bit more about what you've been able to to do or how you've been able to apply the knowledge that you gained when you were doing vibration studies.
So you know, a lot of people are wanting to do predictive analytics right now and they always kind of go, go pick at that. And like one of the first things I'll tell them, you know, I'll go look and what kind of sensing equipment they have on their, their equipment. And I said, you're getting overall vibration. So what that basically means, if you look at a vibration spectrum, the turning frequency, so let's say you're running a motor just with a, a motor starter, basically what we call across the line at 60 Hertz. So it's rotating 60 times a second, right? Is you're basically going to get the biggest peak at rotating frequency. And then each of the successive frequency, like if you have a like an imbalance or, I'm sorry, a misalignment is going to show up at two times, you know, frequency. If you have a, a gear mesh frequency and let's say you got a gear with 52 teeth in it, you're going to see a spike at 52 times starting frequency.
Right? But each one gets progressively smaller. Well the, the thing that always goes out in a motor is the bearing. And if you look at the bearing frequencies, they're way, way out like 500 to a thousand or 1500 Hertz. So they're really, really high frequency but they're really, really low in amplitude. So they don't contribute much to the overall vibration spectrum. So the first thing I'll do is I'll say, well you have an overall vibration spectrum by the time that the bearing frequency show up, the machine's about to shake itself apart and it's already too late. Your pre, anybody can make that prediction. So your sensing equipment is wrong. And most people just blow by that. They think, Oh we'll just throw this great algorithm at it and I'm telling them you don't even have the right information. And so it's, it's, it's been kind of an interesting thing that I, you know, I understand that cause cause so many people miss it and so many people don't understand just that fundamental.
And I can kind of draw it out on whiteboard for them and they're like, Oh well I had no idea. I'm like, yeah, that's kind of kind of why I'm here. I'm not an expert, but I agree. Remember that, you know.
Sounds like it allows you to be much more proactive than reactive.
It does. Which is really the goal of our business, which we'll get into later.
What were some of the challenges facing manufacturers 20 years ago and what were you doing to help overcome them?
So the, the light nineties was an interesting time. We saw a lot of plants shutting down, you know, things were changing and things were either going offshore like to China and Mexico, you know, other lower labor cost places, you know, or things are getting heavily automated. Things that had never been automated before. So, you know, I was doing things like replacing old relay panels, you know, that had hundreds of wires and hundreds of relays in them with you know, digital PLCs or I was upgrading PLCs or we were automating equipment that had never been automated before.
And you know, back then you had a fair amount of engineering talent, you know, in plants and in corporate, you know, ranks that we actually don't have today. That ha that talent has really dwindled down. We can talk a little bit about that later, but I think the big challenge then was how do we keep as much and the right kinds of manufacturing here in the States and how do we automate the processes to make them cost effective. And so I was really helping people do that. I, I was, you know, out there programming the PLCs and you know, I did everything from design electrical panels, help build the electrical panels, get them installed, run conduit, pull wire, hook the wires up, program the PLCs, make sure the equipment started up, be the process engineer, you know, go troubleshoot, you know, when things weren't running well. And so I really had to do a little bit of everything and, and I always would tell people, I'll put my first six years of my career up against most people's 10 or 15. I had to learn so much, so fast and got such a varied you know, experience that, you know, it's, it's really, it's been a dividend my entire career actually, but that's what I was working on 20 years ago and that's what I, those were the main challenges that I remember.
So describe the evolution you've seen in the manufacturing space related to what you've been doing.
It's funny. Type myself a note and I said they're not evolving enough.
Yeah. You know, I actually see you talk a lot about this on your YouTube channel.
Yeah. And interestingly enough, I, I T I poked everybody in the chest earlier in the week or earlier last week, and that's had almost 10,000 views. Which I've never had a, I've never had a video viewed that much. That's a lot. It's a lot of views. But I, I struck a nerve, but, you know, but but I will say, you know, manufacturers aren't evolving enough, but let's talk about what they have done. Pretty much every manufacturer or every heavy industrial that I'm around today has less people running it and more responsibility per person than they've ever had. And I remember, you know, talking with, with Florida power and light when I was at, at OSI soft, and I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like this. The guy told me, he said, we have like twice the generation capacity and a quarter of the people or something along those lines was, it was a very big spread, you know, and I always tell people, you know, we have way too many people in manufacturing running around with a fire hose all day, putting out fires and they're not proactively, you know, running their business and looking for opportunity and really evolving into that next stage of things.
So kind of the evolution to me has been, we're doing a lot more with a lot less. In some cases it's still pretty good. And in other cases it's, it's, I think we're at about our breaking point. So, but I don't think we're evolving enough is my, my view of the world.
So is that caused by the offshoring of manufacturing ops or is it just like a lack of study or lack of focus here from an education standpoint of manufacturing and that's going overseas or what, what's happening there?
I don't think so at all. You know, I'm, I'm going to take a little bit of a stand here that probably some people aren't going to like, but you know, I'm, I'm kind of in the camp of Simon Sinek. He talks a lot about, you know, maybe around the 80s, seventies or eighties, you know, we started using people to balance the books, right? So, Hey, we're not making the profits we need to make and we're not, you know, meeting our shareholders goals. And so therefore we're going to lay off, you know, X percent of our workforce to make the numbers work. And that has been very prevalent for, you know, 30 plus years now. And I think we've gotten rid of so much talent. I don't think it's gone over overseas. Some of it has. I mean, there's definitely some talent that has, but in the manufacturing space, I don't see it that much.
But you know, there's not a lot of gen Xers, which is where I'm at. You know, I'm, I'm about to be 49 here in about a week. And there's, what I'm seeing is there's this big gap between boomers and millennials and not a lot of gen X or ERs to kinda, you know, pass that torch to and hand that down. So really what I believe is we've made our organization's so lean by trying to maximize productivity that we're just about at that breaking point. That, that, that, that's a thought process I've had for a number of years. And, you know, we, we deal with a lot of both private and public, you know, large companies, you know, fortune 500 fortune 1000 type companies. And I, I see that, you know, pretty prevalently, you know, it's like, Hey, we made $1 billion last year, but we're laying off 10% of our workforce. And I'm like, what? You know, I, I don't get that, but, but I do, you know, I, I know why it happens.
So are you seeing it get better? Is there, is there, does the millennial generation fill any of that gap? Is there any hope there? Is there going to be some strong manufacturing leadership that comes out of the millennial generation?
I think we'll get there. I think there's some hard knocks coming, which is kind of what my video, my little two minute, you know, diatribe was about the, the thing I see in the millennial generation, it w w we took the same poke in the chest, you know, is everybody wants to say, Oh, they're entitled. Well, that's what they used to say about us too when we were in our twenties. Right. You know, they just, they just want everything now, you know, and the world has changed such that, you know, everything's faster, right? And, and there is truth and that they want things faster. The thing that I see is the, if you give me a full team of millennials right now, we will go change the world. I love working with young millennial engineers who are driven. I've met so many of them that are so driven, so talented and have such a great work ethic.
You know, I, you know, I'm not saying I've never seen any of them that are entitled, that's, you know, every generation has that. But I think it's, you know, really, really good. They really want to do something positive. Right. That's, that's really where they're at. You know, the problem is I don't think we're pouring enough into them and making them feel a part of what it is we're doing. I, you know, Ben still, who works for me, he, he left his last job because the way they were doing things was kind of antiquated in his mind and he didn't really feel a part of the mission. And you know, I think that's going to be the struggle is keeping good, solid talent engaged and with our companies long enough to, you know, get that continuity. And I think because we're not pouring enough into them right now, that there's actually going to be some tough times ahead before it does get much better. And I think it will work much better. Honestly, I do. I, I love this generation coming up and I think the technology is, is for the taking. You might make the, you know, might look at that quick video that I did and say, Oh Jim just doesn't believe in all these advanced analytics tools. That's, that's actually nothing further from the truth. I think it's just you, you need to take a more pragmatic approach. It's not a savior, it's a tool.
Got it. So what is manufacturing intelligence and why is it something that matters?
So that's a kind of a loose term. But for me here, here's kind of what I think it means, is if you look at the data that our, our customers collect, like say I've got a, I've got a customer that collects 100,000 tags or 100,000 data points on some kind of an interval every single day. Okay. You know, how much of that data actually gets looked at? Take a guess. . .
Well, I don't know, 5%.
Not even, if it's 2% that somebody puts an eyeball on, I'd be shocked. And so, you know, really a lot of this data is sitting there. Some of it's wrong, some of it's not, you know, it's either not being collected at the right interval, it's being compressed out. It's the wrong data. You know we have a customer, Hey, we really want to do some predictive maintenance on this rotating piece. So it kinda was a compressor, a very expensive compressor. It's, it's a very expensive piece of equipment to rebuild and it costs them downtime and expensive downtime. And I, and I said, okay, well one thing that would be really nice is the, the outboard bearing temperature would be a nice thing to know cause it might give us some health on that bearing. It's red 500 degrees for the last five years. You think something might be wrong.
Right. And, and so, so the thing is, is that's not an intelligent system because it's not being maintained. It's not being, the data's not being used to make your people and your equipment smarter and to make better decisions. I mean the equipment should tell you when it needs maintenance or when something might be wrong or you know, when the process might be starting to drift out of control or things of that nature. And because most people are running around with a fire hose all day, they don't have time to go figure that stuff out. So really to me, manufacturing intelligence is how do we take data and, and I'm stealing this from a CIO friend of mine. You take data, turning it into information, turn information and knowledge, turn knowledge into action. And then we had stopped there when I was at OSI soft, the pulp and paper industry principal had had told Larry this and then Larry said, you missed one. You have to take the action and turn it into dollars. That that's the deal, right? And so really manufacturing intelligence has taken all this data that's being collected and actually turning it into something that produces dollars to the bottom line. And, and that's why it matters.
So another great term, loose term, digital transformation. What, what's this buzzword mean? What does it mean to a manufacturer? What is digital transformation to a manufacturer?
Oh, I love these. You know, it's like industrial internet of things and digital twin and you know, all, all this kind of stuff, right? It's like, well, and even like AI, like this, the Splunk CEO even came out, I saw an article this week, is it AI in really what it ought to be does not exist and it probably won't exist for another 50 to a 100 years. Right? That doesn't mean there aren't systems out there that don't learn things, but it's not truly artificial intelligence. Like we've kind of all dreamed out. Right. And so digital transformation is kind of lumped into there. I think the, the best way the, that I can talk about this, I wrote a quick note to myself on this one. You know, it's, tell a story from, from Ben, right as he said, Jim, he says, if you look at it, most of my life, I run off my phone.
You know, anything I want to know, you know, I can use my phone to go get it. I want to watch something on TV. I go, you know, find Netflix, find what I want to watch, I cast it to my screen and I'm watching TV. You know, I have Alexa and I have Google home and I have all these things right? And then I go walking into my, my manufacturer job and everything is either manually written down on clipboards or in Excel spreadsheets or hundreds of Excel spreadsheets everywhere. And I have this big dichotomy in my life, right? It's two different things. I have my work life, which I feel like I'm walking back 25 years in time and you hear things like, well, this is the way we've always done it. You know, the most dangerous words, you know, in the world to a business, you know, the way we've always done it. And he said, you know, I run the rest of my life off my phone, you know, I leave my work and I can do everything with that. And to me, digital transformation enables that, you know, so, so I could come out to your town and if I wanted a hotel, I wanted a restaurant, I needed gas, you know, anything I needed, I can go, you know, look it up on my phone and I can find information about it.
We have, you know, our manufacturing customers can't know anything about their plant on their phone are very little. Like they can't ask a question of how are we running today? How are we running today compared to this time last year? Is my PR arm, all my processes in control. I can't get that on their phone. They've got to go look at a thousand spreadsheets or look at the clipboards or decipher the notes or they got to call somebody they don't know. And so to me, digital transformation really means catching up to what we can do with our personal life in our work life. And that means everything that I need to know about my business is available to me. You know, in a way that I can consume easily and actually drive good positive outcomes that either affect top line sales or bottom line growth or bottom line savings.
Yeah, I really love the connection, you know, knowledge into action. But the action in of itself is not, is not enough. Right? The action has to matter. The action has to produce something that impacts the bottom line of the business. It's not enough just to act or not enough to just have the information. The information has to drive the action, but the action actually has to do something that matters.
Yeah. There there's no doubt. You know, and we're, we're both in that game. We, we approach it from different places, you know, but both of our companies have to do that. You know, we have to teach our customers how to do that.
So you're the founder of Industrial Insight. Tell us how industrial insight came to be and what are some of the projects that you guys are working on?
So you know, how it came about was when I left OSI soft in 2015 I really wanted to, you know, make an impact. And, and I, it was either I was going to go compete with them or I was going to go be a partner with them. This one of those two choices. And I couldn't, I literally looked around the market and I couldn't find anything that I felt as comfortable selling and felt like, you know, I could look someone in the eye and say, Hey, this is as good or better. And so I really kind of lean on the partner thing. So I went back to a company I've been working with before and said, Hey, there's an opportunity, cause I used to talk to all these customers and they would, I'd show them here's what's possible. And they would, it would be one of two reactions. One is, you know, I don't really see it yet, or it was, wow, that's really powerful, but we don't have the time or the resources to figure out how to actually do that for us.
And I said, there was an opportunity in the market, right. And you know, we did pretty well in the first 15 months. We weren't making money, but our sales were good. And you know, I was trying to figure out, okay, how do we make this a mutually beneficial thing? Right. And you know, they had their business model, they had kind of the way they did things and what I wanted didn't fit what they were already doing. And so I realized I'm probably just to be an employee and that wasn't, I wasn't in a stage in my career where that was going to be palatable. Like I really wanted some kind of stake in whatever I was going to do next. And so, you know, I actually, I started looking around for another job. I didn't know what I was going to do. I was like, well, you know, I've got to find something else.
And I actually had a, I was approached by another software company about coming to work for them and you know, it was a quite lucrative job and I couldn't get out of my head that I wanted to stay in what I was doing. And I just didn't know how. And I had a conversation with a good friend of mine named Chris Hollis and he had gotten into selling franchises of all things. He actually came out of the manufacturing space operations guy and mechanical engineer and he, he was just kinda tired of the operations grind. And so this is something he wanted to start doing, kind of entrepreneurial kind of a thing, completely different. And he told me, he said, Jim, you, you realize, do you have any money in your retirement accounts? And I'm like, yeah, you know, a little bit left. I don't, don't have a lot, but yeah, I still have some.
And he said, well, you know, you can take that and roll that over and do a business startup. So there's this program called rollover for business startup or robs. And I'm like, huh. And I said, really? And he said, yeah. So I did a little research on it and talked to my wife about it and actually almost backed out of it. I came actually very close to backing out and I told my wife, I'll never forget this conversation. I said, you know, maybe I just got to work for this software company for a couple of years, you know, we save up some money and you know, then I go start something. And she said, well, what happens with all the people you know, need your help now? I said, Oh, you know, they'll probably find somebody else to do it and, but there'll always be people, you know, that need help.
And she just looks at me and she says, no, your time is now. You need to go do this. And I was literally like, okay, who kidnapped my wife and brought this person into my kitchen? You know, it was a very different kind of a conversation. And I, you know, I know that was God speaking to me through her. Like he, he has a sense of humor that way because I, cause sometimes I'm like really stubborn and hardheaded and so I just knew this was what I needed to do. So literally I took whatever I had left over in, in in my retirement accounts and I bought stock in industrial insight and started this company. And some of the projects we're working on now, we probably 99% of what we do is around the OSS off-price system. Ben actually is really strong also with Splunk.
We've looked at a couple of other, you know, players that are kind of playing in this game a little bit, you know, that or that could, that are probably options. Not everyone will probably end up as a PI customer. I still think it's the most powerful system on the planet, but it's probably not for everybody. And so, you know, we want to understand, you know, how can we serve the whole market, you know, but I, I still think a very significant chunk of what we do will be PI for many years to come. But we're also combining a lot of business intelligence like Tableau and power BI and other tools on top of the time series data. And it's really giving our customers a very unique view into, you know, their processes and what's going on more in a longer term approach.
It kind of gives you a, a 30,000 foot view of what's been happening over time. And so we're working on a lot of projects kind of around that. We, we've been dabbling with multivariate analysis and machine learning, trying to understand, you know, where should that be positioned? Where should we use it, where is it going to work well, where is it not gonna work well you know, and really trying to bring all this just latent data just sitting there, let's bring it to life and you know, and, and surface it to people, you know, where they can take the action and turn it into dollars. You know, we, we teach our customers how to do that. So, so those are some of the projects. I can't really get into a whole lot of the specifics of it, but you know, our, our, our main industry so far have been, you know, pulp and paper and chemicals and doing a little bit in the transportation field. It looks like we're going to get into the power generation industry. I'm hoping and we've got a couple of other things that are kind of on the docket potentially for 2020 that look really interesting to us.
Wow. That is an amazing story. Pretty awesome that your wife supported you and had your back like that and saw the vision and you know, push you and enabled you to go for it.
Well, it there, there's no doubt and you know, I couldn't have done it without her. You know, and, and it's funny, I, I'm actually gonna deal a little bit of video marketing, you know, for, for the company, and I'll probably talk about this tomorrow when we record this, but November 30th, 2017 I was in business for, right at a year I had $109 and 52 cents in my business account and I didn't pay myself salary six times in 2017 and I'll, I'll, I'll never forget a conversation where I pull Christina out on the back patio and I said, I just want to tell you where we're at. And she didn't really know. And I said, here's where we're at. And I'm not going to be able to pay us for a while and it might get worse, but we have $70,000 in accounts receivable and if we can make it till the first part of December. And actually I think I had this conversation October, we probably had $160 in the account at that time. And I said, you know, if we can make it to around the 1st of December, we're going to be okay. Are you in or do you want me to go get a job?
And I remember her saying to, she just looked me on and she said, you know, you're finally starting to get this thing off the ground. You gotta keep going. You have to. And you know, actually this fall I was able to finally pay myself back, you know, that salary you know, and get all that credit card debt that I accrued during that time paid off, you know, which is a huge weight off of my shoulders, but it's, it's one of those things I so believed in what I was doing and, and how important it was. And to have her backing that cause she saw the drive and the passion I had for it, for her to back me. You know, it was pretty massive for me. It's I, I couldn't have done it without her. There's no doubt. No doubt.
What an awesome story, Jim. So I ask every guest this at the end of every star talks episode, what's the most rewarding thing about what you do?
There's lots that are rewarding. On the customer side. I'll start there on the customer side, when the light bulb goes off, when they get that aha moment that, Hey, what you've been telling me now finally makes sense. But sometimes it takes a while. I mean, I'll be honest, it may take years before people understand what the heck I'm talking about. You know, our, our sales cycles tend to be fairly long and it's, it's frustrating. Like my former company didn't, they kind of struggled with it too. They're like, why is this taking so long? It's just the nature of it. I, I don't know if I had a magic formula, why it doesn't, I, you know, it'd be better. The conversations get easier by the year, you know, thank goodness for a lot of marketing hype out there.
You know, we can denigrate it all we want, but you know, it does help with the conversations I have now are easier now than they were five years ago. Sure. So those aha moments with the customer where they're like, Hey, now what you've been telling us actually make sense and they start to drive that value. Right. That's huge. And the other is, is when my people have the aha moments and you know, they accomplish something that they never thought was possible. And you know, those, those are the most rewarding moments because you know, my vision is, is a little bit out there. You know, some of the things I talk about are a little bit out there. A lot of people I don't think completely get where I'm coming from yet. And I think I've been blessed that I see, you know, not way into the future for sure.
But I do see, I think I can sit down and talk with some customers and talk about where they're at. And talk about what they're doing and what, what they're working on and kind of where they're at. And I can see their future five years down the road. It's, that's not a hard thing for me to do and I'm blessed that way cause there's a lot of people can't do that. And you know, to, to actually see some of those things start to come to fruition and to see my people, you know, when they, they realize they're a participant in that and the impact that they're starting to make, it's extremely rewarding and it makes all of what I just told you about rewarding and worth it.
Cause I'm telling you, there are times I certainly thought about packing it in. Like nobody gets this, nobody gets me. I'm just going to go find a job and just, you know, go to work eight to five and do my thing and come home and get a, you know, just collect a paycheck. I trust me. I thought about it several times, but there are so many people watching me. I, you know, that I would, you know, maybe this sounds a little arrogant, but I don't mean it to be that way, but several people who have just come to me, you know, personally and professionally and tell me how I've inspired them, you know, in the fact that I even took this risk at all and I'm like, I can't quit for them. You know, I'll, I'll, it'll hurt their inspiration, right? They go see me succeed. Then maybe they go do something crazy like I'm doing and it inspires them to go take that risk that they've always wanted to take.
So if any of our listeners or subscribers want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that, Jim?
Oh, I mean, the best way is, is it's a first initial, last name, email@example.com. You can go to our website. If you try to email me through that then it'll go to a general account and you can find me that way. You can also look me up on LinkedIn YouTube, all kinds of ways.
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining the show Jim. It's been awesome talking to you. I'm really looking forward to seeing how industrial insights progresses and would love to have you back on the show again for a follow up episode.
I appreciate you having me on and I always enjoy telling the story and you know, hopefully it inspires somebody to go take a crazy chance.
I bet it. Absolutely. Well, thanks again, Jim.
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